In Conversation: Lawrence Dunn & Kevin Howes
In Conversation: Lawrence Dunn & Kevin Howes
By: Shaun Lee
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The release of the critically acclaimed Creation Never Sleeps, Creation Never Dies: The Willie Dunn Anthology from Light in the Attic has brought renewed interest and respect for an artist now seen to be a very significant figure in the history of Canadian folk music. A respected documentarian, playwright, activist and politician, Willie Dunn was a crucial voice of activism for environmental protection, Indigenous rights and social justice, as well as a captivating lyrical storyteller whose topical songs brought light to a wide variety of crucial truths.
Sadly, Willie passed away in 2013, but Cups N Cakes had the pleasure of speaking to his son and associate producer Lawrence Dunn, and producer Kevin Howes (Voluntary In Nature) about their work compiling the anthology, and their appreciation for Willie’s life and art.
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LAWRENCE DUNN
Shaun Lee: I was really impressed by the strength of your voice in expressing your thoughts on your father in the liner notes for the anthology. What would you say were some of the personal attributes you gained from him?
Lawrence Dunn: My father was a very Introspective, thoughtful and considerate person, evidenced by his written word and lyricism. I often find myself lost deep in thought and catch myself remembering a time when I could see the same far off look on Willie’s face as I was growing up.
SL: With events unfolding at Unist'ot'en, Trans Mountain and Standing Rock, we’re seeing as much need as ever for voices like Willie’s right now. What values do you think current artists can take from Willie’s example?
LD: Willie was very much a person who would undertake a journey for the sake of discovering truth in the world, as a young man. He travelled to Africa with the Canadian Military, and had reminisced about this time in his life, telling me “they were the best years of my life.” He took many important life lessons from his time in Congo, and carried these lessons for the rest of his life.
While visiting Buckley Petawabano with Kevin Howes, I learned of Willie's time in California for the first time, where he travelled to learn and involve himself with the Delano grape strike, which was being led by Cesar Chavez. Buckley told me about how Willie carried the spirit of this boycott to Montreal with him and disseminated knowledge about the strike and promoted involvement, this was not too long before his journey to James Bay for a similar battle with the Quebec Hydro Dam project.
Willie was about direct involvement with people regarding these types of issues, he saw value in the stories people shared around movements like these, and wanted to be able to hear these stories first hand, rather than by word of mouth.
In our current age of misinformation and cognitive bias, Willie’s example of direct involvement with issues of ecology, land stewardship and indigenous human rights are very important for people to be aware of.
SL: What artists, poets or singers did your father look up to? Who did he look to for guidance and inspiration.
LD: Willie very much appreciated Taj Mahal. I have a very early memory of sitting on his shoulders watching Taj Majal perform his blues at a Mariposa Folk festival in the early 80’s.
Another artist my father greatly admired was Richie Havens, and he knew Ritchie from his days of owning a bar in Montreal. He could not say enough about Ritchie’s ability to play a guitar. I grew up to become a huge fan of Ritchie Havens myself.
Willie loved and appreciated his time spent with Brownie Mcgee and Sonny Terry, and had many interesting stories about spending time with them. He had a great admiration for the old blues men he met in his years touring around North America, and while owning his bar in Montreal.
My dad also introduced me to John Lee Hooker in the late 90’s while he was travelling through town for a performance. We watched the show and afterwards went backstage to meet the legend. The warmth with which John greeted Willie is not something I will never forget.
SL: Is there a personal story or moment you could share that you feel really defines your father’s character
LD: This is a difficult question to answer as there were many facets to my father, there are many stories that come to mind. I really miss watching him perform. He was very much at home on stage, simultaneously completely at ease while being very funny and brilliant with seemingly no effort at all, but I guess that's what comes with years of experience.
He would speak completely off the cuff in between songs, sometimes at length. Often shamelessly revealing personal details about the family that were sometimes very embarrassing. We always laughed about it afterwards, sometimes for years.
SL: Which song(s) of your father’s do you connect with the most?
LD: I find I have different favourite songs, depending on what I am going through at any given time. As I grow and find my perspective in life changes, I find my understanding of his songs developing with them
“Wounded Lake” is a beautiful song about the poetry of nature and the complex relationship it embraces people with.
“The Storm” (from the Vanity of Human Wishes), carries a very powerful message about perseverance in the face of adversity.
I find myself some days playing “Louis Riel” on repeat, as its message about defiance in the face of hatred and injustice is empowering and uplifting.
SL: What kind of lessons do you hope people take away from your father’s music and life?
LD: I hope people realize they are listening to somebody who was very honest with himself. Willie was a person who refused to compromise his message and values. Anybody involved in any form of artistic expression could learn from his example.
SL: It meant a lot to me as a listener to see the letters from family and friends in the liner notes. Did the family also have a role in the process of bringing the compilation to fruition?
LD: I spent time with Kevin during the research process, we traveled around and spoke with several of my father’s old friends and made several reconnections which are special to myself.
We also spent time at the National Archives in Ottawa researching articles and documents relating to Willie’s story.
SL: In the wake of the release of the Native North America box set, it seems that a lot of younger artists are connecting with and being influenced by the music of your father and his other contemporaries within the Indigenous arts communities. Are there any modern artists out there who you see as carrying on in Willie’s footsteps?
LD: There are many talented artists carrying on in Willie's footsteps, and many are covering his music, which I think is a wonderful thing. I hope to see many more musicians covering Willie’s music, both Indigenous and otherwise.
SL: This release focuses on Willie’s music, but there are numerous significant facets to your father’s life and work. What are some other achievements outside of music that the public should be aware of regarding your father?
LD: My father was a very creative person. His expression came in the form of poetry, songs, written stories and plays.
There are many unpublished stories Willie wrote that I feel need to be heard by people, and I hope one day to see Willie published, to see his plays and stories acted out, on a screen or on a stage.
Willie documented many stories from elders across Canada and worked as a documentarian when time and funding would permit. Willie knew those stories are very important to preserve.
SL: Your father was of mixed Mi’kmaq and Scottish/Irish background, and much of his music incorporates elements of Celtic folk balladry along with Indigenous themes. Did he see a common thread running between both sides of his heritage?
LD: Willie was very much drawing parallels between the stories of the Indigenous people of North America and the Indigenous stories of Celtic history. I often think that my father felt largely misunderstood by those who opposed his viewpoint, as his was not a position of intolerance, even to his oppressors.
Willie very much honored his European heritage (and his father) as much as his Indigenous heritage, and made connections through music and time.
I think two great examples of this are “The Ballad of John Maclain” and “Charlie”(Wenjack).
The song “Charlie” is based on a very old song which was first written down around 1850, Child Ballad 113, “The Great Selkie of Sule Skerry,” which itself is a very tragic song, and can be found in different contrafactums (The Byrds “I Come Stand at Every Door”).
I would agree that Willie saw a common thread between the North American and Celtic old-world Indigenous stories. His music and poetry strongly embody an ancient spirit, shared between both heritages.
Kevin Howes (Left), Lawrence Dunn (Right), December 15th 2017.
KEVIN HOWES
Shaun Lee: Can you share for us how you first became involved with Matt Sullivan and LITA records?
Kevin Howes: I first connected with Matt Sullivan in the early 2000s, near the beginning of the Seattle based label’s journey. I was living a few hour’s drive to the north in Vancouver at the time. My friends, Mr. Supreme and Deejay Sureshot, aka instrumental hip-hop recording artists, The Sharpshooters, had introduced me to the label as someone who might be able to help their efforts, and that’s exactly what happened.
SL: For many younger listeners, their first taste of Willie’s music was the three tracks included on the Native North America box set. Can you explain a little about how that compilation came to be?
KH: Personally, the conception of the Native North America compilation and series was an important stop along the road of learning about recorded music, the artists themselves, the stories behind the songs, and in relation, my relationship with Canada, but also a greater awareness of the land that I called home, Turtle Island, and my position here after years of work to not only be able to listen and learn, but to share with the blessing and support of the original music makers. Many truths were revealed in the process…
SL: You crafted a very extensive set of liner notes for this release. What was involved in the process, and how did you conduct your research?
KH: I have a background as a professional music/film journalist for The Georgia Straight Newspaper (2000-2006) and I remember those ethics. To me, the process is about asking for context and giving thanks. I interviewed Willie in person and on the phone and many of his peers and sought out artifacts from the era when Willie was recording his landmark albums (books, records, film, newspapers, magazines, art, etc…) to help inform myself. Traveling on the road for years with many of the artists featured on Native North America, from coast-to-coast and into the US and Arctic, only added to this understanding, still unfolding, a lifelong reality… The WILLIE DUNN NOTES is a newspaper that accompanies The Willie Dunn Anthology. It is a tribute to the grassroots/radical newspapers of the 1960s with a special nod to Akwesasne Notes, which Willie was involved with through his connection to Rarihokwats, a mentor, and the White Roots of Peace. The newspaper was designed by my long term art director and friend Chris Gergley (Phototechnica) and is available as a .PDF or direct mail order for shipping costs via Voluntary In Nature.
SL: What all is involved in preparing an archival release like this? How did you go about selecting songs and gaining the necessary permissions for the release?
KH: Years of unpaid work, digging, reflection, contemplation, consultation, legalities, and tragedies. Paying my dues since ’94.
SL: I’ll ask the same question I asked of Lawrence - Is there a particular song of Willie’s that you connect to most?
KH: Each and every song/poem has its own special meaning(s).
SL: In the weeks since this release there’s been a real noticeable surge in enthusiasm for Willie’s music, most notably a nod for best reissue from Pitchfork Media, as well as extensive coverage on the CBC. Are there any plans you know of for either a documentary or book covering Willie’s music and legacy?
KH: There is always more ahead… To quote Willie: “Creation Never Sleeps, Creation Never Dies.” The rest is business…
SL: So far, we’ve seen a raft of solo releases on LITA from other artists off the Native North America box, including Willie Thrasher, John Angaiak and Morley Loon. Are there any plans for subsequent solo releases from other artists included on the box set?
KH: I have been blessed to connect with and work with so many artists in my time. I am currently focused on Voluntary In Nature, an outlet for sharing. Though I don’t like to speak on things before their time, VIN will help to share new/old music by Willie Thrasher this year. Indian/Inuit Country (VIN 002), an early 1990s cassette-only release, will be released digitally and on vinyl to begin, but remember, it’s about the music not the format. John Angaiak has been a supporter/contributor to VIN and for that I am eternally grateful. Thank you John. NNA V2 is also in the works for LITA. Keep your ears to the ground or my Instagram for more information…
SL: Are there any plans for reissues of Willie’s solo albums in the pipeline? 1979’s The Pacific seems like a particularly cohesive work worth listening to in its entirety.
KH: LITA will be releasing all of Willie’s studio albums digitally later this year.
SL: Do you recall where/when and how you first heard Willie’s music? What track was it, and what effect did it have on you?
KH: I first heard Willie Dunn’s music through his 1968 film The Ballad of Crowfoot, shown to me in high school (Brother André Catholic High School in Markham, ON) in 1990. Effect? Well, here I am… Here we are… Talking about Willie. Thank you Willie!
SL: What are your hopes for this compilation? It already seems to be generating new interest in Willie’s music, but beyond that, do you think the increased public awareness of his work might lead to a re-contextualization of his contributions towards the Canadian canon of arts?
KH: The audience for all of my archival music projects are the artists themselves. Willie’s support and belief in my work made both the Willie Dunn Anthology and Native North America series possible. Thanks from the family is ultimately my payment and more than enough though it does not put food on the table or pay my rent. It does keep a light on in the attic though. As it has been shown, they are the bank in this equation. Willie, myself, and the contributors are the artists. We lift each other up as the industry will not. Something to think about. Whose canon are we talking about? Willie has always sat amongst the greats to anyone lucky enough to have heard him and thankfully, a great many have. The rest is for the media to pontificate about. This project has already brought many ears, hearts, and minds to Willie Dunn’s poetry, song, film, art, and family. For any true artist, that is success. I vote for Willie Dunn. PEACE.
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- Shaun Lee
[*Note From Editor - Also out today, watch Jeff open the limited edition double LP for Creation Never Sleeps, Creation Never Dies. Then come back tomorrow to read Shaun Lee’s “Pick Of The Week” review for this incredible Anthology.]