In Conversation: Merky Waters & Ava Wild
In Conversation: Merky Waters & Ava Wild
Greg Torwalt
The link-up of veteran hip-hop producer Merky Waters and eclectic singer-songwriter Ava Wild has brought into existence one of the most exciting, genre-swerving, free-flowing albums of 2021. Existing was crafted while the two artists worked in isolation from their own studio spaces. The album was reviewed as a Cups n Cakes Pick of the Week following its August 13 release. Greg chatted with the two about how the project came to be and the inspiration behind some of the songs. Enjoy!
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Greg Torwalt: How did the two of you meet?
Ava Wild: We met in 2016-17 and Chris was teaching some workshops at school. And I was not really in school, cuz I was booking a bunch of tours - but I was sort of in school. And this teacher I had at the time knew I was doing music and they were like, “you should come meet this person, they’re very cool”. So I skipped one of the other classes I was supposed to be in. We were talking and I was like, “Oh, I do music,” and Chris was like, “Oh, that’s nice,” (laughs), and then I went back some time later and he’s like, “Oh... you actually do music.”
Merky Waters: (laughs) Once the dialogue started, you know, talking about writing grants, and touring, and whatever, it’s like ya.. you actually do some stuff.
AW: Ya then this project developed years later… We met to do some jam sessions. Chris was beatboxing and I played guitar and would do random vocal riffs. And we just kind of hung out for an afternoon or something. And that was fun and everything, we talked about music and what we were into at the time. Then he took it back and crafted stuff from those sessions.
MW: Ya I mean, I always just try to take what I can get from somebody and then make something out of it. There were some awesome loops we had, and like I did the beatboxing bass line, and that kind of started it all - like a vocal bass line. And then Ava dropped some awesome vocal trumpet.
AW: And that was for the track “Lady”.. So basically he sent it to me and was like, “Hey do you want to write something over this?” And that would have been right at the beginning of the pandemic, I think..
MW: Ya, and then I was like “Maybe we should try another song, maybe we should try to get like five together...”
AW: It kind of went one at a time cuz he’s got like an array of tracks in composition and various production stages, and you’d kind of select or listen to stuff and be like.. “ok, I could try..”
MW: Ya it was kind of like.. “Here, what do you think of this?” There was a lot of it that I thought maybe was going to work and didn’t work, and a lot of stuff that I couldn’t picture anything on it, then she did a whole thing in it.. so ya, it was surprising what she did and it fit together. It was awesome.
GT: That’s really cool, yeah I was curious how this project came together...
MW: Yep I was just trying to do something different too… previously I did a lot of rap, like boom-bap rap.. I’m kind of a hip-hop purist at heart.. so I got my beat machine and my loopers, and you know, I’m kind of a loop digger right… so a lot of the stuff I was doing was just straight up rap, you know, braggadocious.. like talking about how good of a rapper you are and that kind of stuff stuff (laughs)
AW: (laughs) braggadocious. Oh, I love it!
MW: And then I got more into listening to artists like H.E.R and SiR, more r&b.. so I wanted to try something more in this realm of things. And Ava was my first choice. You know I hear her music a lot and think, “Ok, I want to hear drums on this, I wanna hear the hip hop side of this”
AW: And I think you’ve met me at the perfect time because in the past few years I’ve been transitioning from making music on the guitar to incorporating the computer into what I do. I’ve been producing my own music and playing with production on the computer at home. And that was part of the serendipity, at the time I was getting into that realm of making music in that way… it was a neat process cuz I had never like... top-lined a song, which is kind of what this project was. Taking this piece of music and making sense of it lyrically and being inspired... I could press record and see where it went, as opposed to thinking out all the chords and what the rhythm would be. When I write my own stuff it’s a way different process, whereas this was much more just like press record and see what happens. The flow.. just getting in the flow and the vibe of it. I really love and respect hip hop music, but I’m always like (laughs), “I’m a teeny white woman from the middle of Saskatchewan”. I listen to a lot of that music but as far as being able to fully create it, it’s just a bit of a different mind set. I wanted to be “braggadocious” a little bit.. I wanted myself to be a bit braggadocious, it’s really fun to play off certain tropes that I’ve seen in that kind of music.
GT: That braggadocious vibe comes across so well on this record (laughs). Ava, did you have lyrics in mind for a project when you were doing these tracks, or did the tracks influence where you went with the lyrics?
AW: The tracks completely influenced what I ended up writing which was a really neat test for me. I’ve never really considered myself a songwriter. It was always like the intention of the song is to get an energy out, or about things in my life going on. So a lot of my lyricism is like, I collect words, I like words, I like saying them, or singing them. I collect random stuff all the time. But as far as sitting down to craft something... I try to just go and tap into the flow of it. It was neat with this project because I was able to talk about things that I don’t think I would have been able to talk about just on my own because I’m not thinking of crafting the perfect chorus, or thinking that I really want a guitar solo here. It was like.. this is the song, and I’m going to dance and groove with it. There’s this beautiful thing in this style of music... of freestyling. So it’s my version of freestyling, just letting it free-flow basically. And the lyrics ended up being inspired by conversations I’d been having directly at the time. This is very in the moment.. what was happening in my life or the things I’m contemplating and I was able to try and convey that really directly, which was really cool.
MW: And capture it
AW: Ya exactly! Like a photograph, capturing.. some of it felt really daring and exposing.. I think the first track.. “Lady”, I was having a conversation with my mom and grandma about the dynamic of the way that a ranch works in gender roles… like most of the time as a woman we’re in the kitchen and there’s an expectation that we’re really great at anticipating when everyone’s gonna get hungry… and I have no interest in being in the tractor or the swather… so I had written this sassy song about what that felt like to me at the time which was kind of funny to go from that sassy energy of that conversation to talking about.. I have a reference to To Kill a Mockingbird in “Yes, Man” which was really exciting (laughs)
MW: which I caught right away (laughs)
AW: I was like… I can reference stuff.. so I have a reference to a lot of the cultural conversations around racism.. I was able to explore that on an art level.. and looking at the news and seeing all these Yes Men that are around and stuff, so it was interesting to translate those conversations to lyrics.. and a bit terrifying because I’m figuring it out, like I don’t know...
GT: I love the lyrics on this album. One standout was “Boom X3”: “Don’t play with my minutes and expect my top game”
AW: That was a really fun one to write... A lot of this project was in our separate vicinity... so he’d send me tracks and I would have them and play with them. And that one… I get bored of my own voice... so I was like, I want to just try singing this way. I think I was laying down or something. I found this register of my voice that was kind of this yelling scream but still melodic, and it felt so good to sing that way. I had written those lyrics... they came sort of separately, like I had written something in my phone, but not directly like that. And usually what will happen is that I’ll write lyrics, put them away, press record, and see what I remember and draw from it. And that was definitely really fun.
MW: On that one in particular too… I mean the whole project is a juxtaposition of my style with her style - that’s just what we’re playing on. But with that one in particular we’re like, let’s take it to the extreme!
GT: That one is such a standout to me. My jaw dropped on the first listen.
MW: There are a lot of layers on that one.
AW: I think I played bass on that track which was so funny because, like, there was a bass.. the static, kind of like crunchy bass line and I added another bass line.. the groove is very unique, so I remember just pressing record and just totally vibing with the bass line...it’s very moving and comes up from the gut and outward which is very fun.
MW: Ya that one I brought out my inner El-P. I got into hip-hop heavy in the early 2000s, when you kind of had more the Nelly side of things and then underground like Aesop Rock, and Atmosphere, and all that… that’s when I really got into hip-hop. So I always kind of take that style with me. The El-P, Aesop Rock, just that grimey... I can see the influence on “Boom X3” for sure.
AW: (laughs) and then you put Ava on it screaming.
MW: There’s that juxtaposition thing (laughs)
GT: So how many beats would you send to Ava? Did you have an idea of what she would jump on?
MW: Ya I had some that I was like, ya for sure she will jump on this.
AW: (laughs) I still might..
MW: I had probably about twenty I sent that we didn’t go follow through with.
AW: And my selection process didn’t have much logic to it. I would play stuff and be like.. “Today, this is what I’m feeling”. Probably on the day I selected “Boom X3” I needed that kind of boasting energy, and I was dealing with some personal stuff and this is where I’m at. And then there were other times, like “Magpie” was kind of a vulnerable time. I think I wrote it a lot of the time while walking. And at first, buried in the back of the track was me kind of recording like Pink Floyd recorded stuff - I was drawing on that influence of how they.. I forget the track, but they have this female singer and the way they brought her in without ever having her listen to it. And I think that’s how I ended up listening to “Magpie”. I listened to like two seconds, then I’d press record and did this “ahhhh” vocal that’s really far in the back, really reverbed out. The selection process was very intuitive and not thought out.
MW: And that’s perfect, that’s the way to make music.
GT: It does sound very free and experimental. So with the vocals, were you always just following your voice, or did you two plan out harmonies and vocal layers?
MW: A lot of it was just Ava sending me tracks and then me kind of curating them a bit.
AW: Ya, that was the trust of our collaboration. I could just send him a bunch of stuff and let him be the deciding factor. Which was a really fun place for me to exist creatively because in my own stuff I’m thinking of the millionth step before I’ve done the hundredth. He would draw out certain things that I thought would be buried in the backgrounds.
MW: Which was fun for me.
AW: Ya that was one of the cool things about the collaboration - like I was in charge of where I’d want to put harmonies or doubled vocals or ad libs. My approach was: do it until it’s not fun anymore and then send it to him. Sometimes I’d be like, I want to add this vocal part here, or this needs something or I could fill this out more.
MW: Ya I love just working subtractively where I get a lot of stuff and pick through it.
AW: And the wonderful thing about your beats and the music you make is that there is space for things to grow. I would get sent something and it wasn’t like, oh it’s totally done or finished. It was clearly the vibe or the energy, but I could see myself in it. I could add vocals to this, or I could see a story. Or there were some instances where I added guitar or a synth or piano part. That was a really great base level for me to just make stuff, and then I’d send it to you and be like, “you get the final say” (laughs).
MW: A lot of hip-hop producers make a beat and are like, that’s the beat and you’re gonna rap from that. I don’t like that. I work a little more collaboratively where I kind of create the platform and then we build it up from there.
AW: The track “Damn” went through the most iterations...
GT: Oh I love when the beat kicks in… I just want to hear it in a club.
AW: Ya it’s like the pre-club walking into the club jam.
MW: For sure, I drew on a little dance-hall for the rhythm of that.
AW: I feel like it would make a really fun funk song too. I think I did the bass line for “Damn”. I was listening to a lot of funk music at the time. And I was like, “how do they make their bass lines, what is the guitar part doing?” So when I was approaching the song that’s where I came from and then it sparked a whole new production vibe from that.
MW: And with this one I was a little concerned about the sample I had on it, that it was a little much of a solid look and that it would be too recognizable. Once I took that away I saw something new in the song. That one took me to a whole different place when I took away that sample, and saw it as a totally new thing. That’s when those drum loops came in with the off beat and upbeat, and spitting back to the snare on the 3. Ya that one is really fun. Started somewhere and ended up somewhere else.
GT: Speaking of samples and references, “Magpie” is inspired by “My Favourite Things” from The Sound of Music. Can you speak more to the lyrical content of the song, and why you riffed off that idea?
AW: Ya, Lauryn Hill had done a song inspired by it (“Black Rage”), and we were listening to that. The cadence of how that song is structured is very nursery rhyme, which makes great music. We were talking a lot about it, and I always talk about materialism and how we live in this world. And that felt like a direct energy of it so when I went to approach the lyrics for it, I was in a space where I would catch myself spending money to try and make yourself feel better, and trying to keep up with the latest fads and trends and come across as glamorous and fun when really inside you feel like a disgusting ogre. And existing in this space of excess even though probably to get to the actual healing that you need you have to go inside instead of buying all these materialistic things. Which is something I contemplate and think about a lot because I like pretty things, I like fun things, and there’s the underlying idea of what’s actually sustainable and what’s going to make my spirit happy. So I got to shout out my therapist in that track… ya! (laughs) healing…
GT: Let’s talk a little bit about the title track “Existing”...
AW: That was also inspired by therapy. Thank you, therapist! (laughs)
MW: That track actually started a long time ago. I was part of a group called The Local Onlyz. I was with a rapper named InfoRed and an artist named Thomas Roussin. He actually sent me the guitar and the Rhodes samples on that and I created a beat around that. We were thinking of doing another project but it didn’t really come through, so I’ve always had this Rhodes and guitar beat that I just loved. I didn’t send it to Ava right off the hop, but after a few tracks I’m like.. “You know what, I don’t know how you feel singing over someone else’s guitar”.. cuz I know she likes playing guitar, but let’s just see if she likes it. And then she came up with the “Whoop ah!” - I thought that was awesome.
AW: It was cool because you would title the tracks.. Like when you would send me tracks they would have some sort of a title, like a random title. And I think that one had something to do with Rhodes.. Like dirt rhodes. And I was working at my ranch at the time. So sometimes I’d bring out my recording equipment so some of the vocals may have been recorded in the tiny house, I can’t remember, it was all over the place. But I was at the ranch and I go for really long walks because I can walk and then there is no view of human existence… which is a really cool space to be able to live in. So I’ll go for really long walks and I’ll listen to music I’m feeling at the time, and then I’ll sometimes randomly listen to the beats and be like, “what’s this?” I was on the walk and on top of a hill and listening to that beat and the lyrics started coming to me. And you can’t record voice memos while a track is playing, so the way I could do it was recording through Instagram stories. So I probably have somewhere like 8 random instagram stories of 15 second clips of me trying to just capture what I was experiencing. I had come up with the Ooh, Ahh part which is, you know, kind of Spanish music almost, which I really love. Then I came up with the lyrics, cuz I was deep diving into Esther Perel, she has a TED talk about her upbringing and how a lot of her work revolves around the idea that there is a difference between living and just purely existing. Which I found funny because I had come across it after being in an intense work week. I was on a movie set or something and the whole time was 12 hours things. People would be like, “how are you?”, and I’d be like, “I’m Existing” (laughs)... I’m here but I don’t really understand my brain at this point in time (laughs). So I had been saying that as a response to how are you, and then all of those like random threads ended up fitting into this track of Existing. I had recorded a sketch part for it, and went over some of the lyrics and had some of the backing vocals. It wasn’t fully in the groove of it so we met up one day, pressed record, and did like two takes in Chris’s studio space and that’s what you end up hearing. Then from that I built up harmonies and backing stuff. That’s kind of how that song happened.
GT: So Chris, how did you know when a track was done when you are getting all of these stems from Ava?
MW: You don’t… you just have to stop yourself at some point. I was listening to some songs today, I’m like… ahh I could have added this, or that.. But you can do that forever… I would say most things could just keep going and going, that’s my DJ side coming out. I’ve made projects that just go and go for 15 minutes where I’m producing and mixing. It could go forever, but you just have to stop yourself at some point.
AW: It’s helpful with us both having a performing background… it’s a moment. I know even for vocals some of my grammar isn’t correct, which I know doesn’t matter with songwriting, but the intention with it was to capture, not necessarily perfect and tweak. So even on my end, I could have done this probably a bit better, or differently, or added this or that, but no, we’re capturing.
GT: What do you think was the other person’s secret weapon that they brought to this collaboration?
MW: With Ava, everything I got from her… I was like, wow I can’t believe where she took that beat. Or the lyrics, they’re still growing on me. I find that I’m so impressed by her songwriting ability, and her ability to just hear melodies where I didn’t hear that. Just to hear original things.
AW: I’d say your secret weapon was that there was a foundation and there’s a space for growth and things to happen. I’ve collaborated with different people, and everytime you collaborate there is a different energy or vibe. And sometimes you’re trying to impress or entertain, whereas this collaboration was: let’s create stuff that’s exciting and interesting and fun, and push it to this different place. So I felt like I had permission to sing like a sheep (laughs) or experiment with different vocal things. You created a space for me to experiment and try things out.
MW: A lot of our conversations about music were like.. “Does it matter? Does anything matter.. Who cares, just do it?” (laughs)
AW: When we first met too, we got along or there was a direct harmony in the sense that we both had an approach to music that was like…you had taught a bunch of workshops and I think the way you described it was: “I like to teach people to create a space with music” and that resonated with me a lot. We had that same appreciation for music that it creates a space with sound and sonics for creativity to happen. And so as far as that’s concerned, who cares what people are going to think, or if it’s going to be mainstream or radio… or anything of that other BS that people try to sell you on doesn’t matter. We’re going to create a space for creativity, of course.
GT: Which song was the most fun to record?
MW: They’re all different, but “Lady” was the original… we’re gathering loops and it’s turning into something. So for me I would say “Lady” because it was the foundation and the spark, and because I’m beatboxing on it. A lot of the songs I’m struggling with what I am going to do for a live performance, am I just going to press play and jam (laughs).. But that one I can actually beat-box on so I have something to do.
AW: I would say there are elements of fun on all of it. It was really fun to find that new kind of voice on “Boom X3”, that braggity voice. (laughs) And then on “Damn” it was really fun… I took me saying damn and pitched it down on my sampling machine which I had never done before, so that was really fun to do that. But there was definitely a lot of fun...“Yes Man” was really fun.
GT: Since we’re reflecting on the tracks.. is there a song that is extra-meaningful on this album that you want to bring attention to?
MW: I think “Magpie” sits heavy with me. You know, coming from hip-hop, not that I’ve dealt with it too much in my own practice, but with listening to hip-hop… The materialism side of things has always been a stain on hip-hop, and the sexism and all that stuff… To make a beat and have something that goes against that, that sits deep for me. And also that’s the only song I’m kind of singing in the background too, so that was my first go at doing something with my voice.
AW: “Yes Man” was really hard for me to write. To me, it was a really uncomfortable topic... the racism and seeing the Black Lives Matter movement that was happening. I didn’t want to directly talk about it, but I couldn’t help but think about all that was going on. Same with the LGBTQ rights, and women’s rights, I was in that headspace. I was listening to a podcast about women early on in the film industry and all that bullshit they had to face. And because for me that’s an uncomfortable topic to think about, and converse about, and I’d been having uncomfortable conversations about it for a while, which is super important... So when I was writing it, it was important for me to be like, “this can’t be misinterpreted...I don’t want to offend anybody.” And it’s not that it’s offending anybody, it’s coming from: I really care about people… There’s just a lot of pain and hurt in society with all of that, and on a personal level too of encountering that kind of energy. The whole chorus of it is like feeling that you have to fit into what society deems okay and normal, even though it’s totally not cool or okay… like why is this still happening in 2021? So that was a pretty uncomfortable song to write about, but important.
GT: Who in your life has influenced you to feel empowered to share your voice?
AW: It’s fascinating.. Through touring you meet all kinds of people. I would say early on my parents set me up well to receive all kinds of people and all kinds of conversations. And because I also have a ranch background, my family owns land… I’d say there is a different respect of the world, a different worldview, an acknowledgement of being connected to nature and the land. And also there was always a strong conversation about what is going to cause unity in the world. That was at the forefront of how I was educated, and in my household that was the number one thing. We would have the “Our Door Is Always Open” policy, so we would have people come and go in our home, regardless of where they were at in life. We would have a lot of people travelling through with all different backgrounds… so I was raised in that. I’ve also travelled quite a bit so I would say there’s a different appreciation and that’s definitely influenced my faith in humanity in general. Which is why I miss touring… cuz it’s like you read stuff on the internet and you’re like “ooh the world’s not in a good place” And then you go on tour, and you’re like, oh there’s mostly good people in the world. Thank God that’s been my experience, But that’s also influenced my faith in humanity and that’s sort of influenced by opinion. And then you follow the trajectory of “what’s going to cause unity in the world?” and that’s at the forefront of a lot of the conversations I end up having with my family members.
MW: For my influences, the hip-hop artists who had the platform and talked about things.. Like KRS-One and Pharoahe Monch, all these artists who kind of touched on other genres. And kind of seeing where hip-hop has gone lately, and my growth..still listening to hip-hop but now a lot more R&B was a big influence for me to try and do something like that on my own - or with somebody who could do that. Ya I’d say my hip-hop background and the “not giving a crap” at the same time as learning and the educational side of things. Like me being a teacher, a lot of that stems from hearing KRS-One “My Philosophy”... “in about four seconds, a teacher will begin to speak”. That was one of the first hip-hop songs I had ever heard, and hip-hop led me to teach. So for me not to work with somebody who will see things similarly would be a fault for me. But I get influenced by everybody I work with. Ava definitely influenced me to do more music like this.
AW: Muahahaha (evil laugh)
GT: Do you have any dream collaborators - maybe not necessarily music?
AW: I know my answer isn’t a direct person. I’m always game to collaborate with people whose intentions match mine. I love just making stuff, so I’ve been collaborating with people on various levels, even with film, photography, video stuff as well as singing and backing others up. Which is how this collaboration came up… like the intention of it matches the vibe of where I’m at. But there are definitely people… I would love to collaborate with Lido Pimienta. I want to eat food with her and sing with her (laughs). She would be one of the people I’d love to work with, but other than that just anyone that the intention matches.
MW: I want to work on movies, that’s always been a goal of mine. I want to try to score a movie, I don’t know who it would be… I have some favourite directors. I’m actually going to be doing a fight scene. There’s a stunt guy from Regina who sent some stuff and we’re going to try to score the scene. We’ll see where that leads us to. I think a lot of the beats I make could fit well with movies.
GT: I usually end the interviews with a word association game - comparing your project to a topic, so you’ll share the first word that comes to mind when you think of the project Existing!
MW: I’m an Arts Eds teacher so I’m all about this (laughs)
GT: Okay sweet! First up: animal?
MW: Puma
AW: Magpie
GT: What food is Existing?
MW: French fries.. It’s chopped
AW: Garden vegetables
GT: What season?
MW: Fall
AW: I would also say fall, right before winter.
GT: Colour?
AW: Purple
MW: Purple, the cover is purple.
AW: Yeah I worked heavily on the visuals for the album and purple was the vibe.
GT: Beverage?
AW: I’m really into iced coffee, I drank so much iced coffee while writing it.
MW: London Fog
GT: What piercing is Existing?
AW: Eyebrow, why not?
MW: Your eyes… piercing...
GT: Flower or plant?
MW: Aloe Vera
AW: Crocus
GT: Last question.. what instrument is Existing?
MW: I don’t know if it’s even on the album, but like a flute? That’s kind of like Ava’s voice I would say… floaty, whimsical.
AW: Definitely some kind of synth… there’s the highs and lows so the synth kind of embodies that frequency range… I dunno!
Check out the video for “Existing” and find the full album on streaming services and Bandcamp!